Passion For Life.

Lord Alton of Liverpool moved, as an amendment to the Motion, Amendment No. 2A:

Line 3, at end insert “or in any circumstances where the purposes of the proposed research can be achieved by any method not entailing the use of human admixed embryos.”

The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 2A tabled in my name straightforwardly seeks to enshrine in the new law the principle that, before any animal-human admixed embryo is created, it must be established that alternatives do not exist. This proposition was advanced in your Lordships’ House by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, who has a hospital appointment which coincides with this debate. It was also the subject of amendments in another place at Report stage, tabled by Mr. David Burrowes, Member of Parliament for Enfield Southgate. As the debate in another place was guillotined, the amendments were never reached, so the House of Commons did not have a chance to debate this principle. The only way in which such a debate could occur is if your Lordships agree Amendment No. 2A.

At earlier stages of our debates on this issue, the issue was often referred to as the “Hunt test”. It gained that description from some words used by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in our debates on whether we should allow the creation of embryonic stem cells for the purposes of cloning. In that debate in 2001, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said that it would be licit to use embryonic stem cells only if it could be demonstrated that no other alternatives were available.

We should not underestimate the phenomenal public unease about some of the provisions of the Bill. More than 30 major public meetings have been held throughout the United Kingdom, attended by thousands of people; almost 2 million protest cards and letters have been sent to Members of another place; and many significant public figures have spoken out against the mass manufacture, manipulation and destruction of human embryos. This is not, as I know your Lordships will agree, a trivial matter.

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The argument has been put persistently throughout our debates that experiments on the human embryo and admixed embryos will bring great benefits in the form of treatments for diseases which at present are incurable. Yet, since 1990 not even one treatment has materialised to help the sick, compared with more than 80 treatments using ethically acceptable adult stem cells. There has been scandalous over-hype and playing on people’s fears and desperation.

Our obsession with experiments on human embryos has led to a failure properly to pursue the alternatives. That in turn is having a disastrous effect on both our ability to develop life-saving treatments and to develop good science. Some scientists have also been coming to the same conclusion. A report in last week’s Sunday Timesstated:

“A leading British scientist is leaving the country to work in France after claiming that British science gives too much priority to embryo experiments over ‘more ethical’ alternatives”.

An article in the Times Higher Education supplement of 23 October states that Colin McGuckin, professor of regenerative medicine at Newcastle University, and an expert in adult stem cells, believes that UK funding agencies and his university have prioritised embryonic stem cell research above work with adult stem cells. He said:

“A vast amount of money in the UK from the Government has gone into embryonic stem cell research with not one patient having been treated, to the detriment of (research into) adult stem cells, which has been severely underfunded”.

It is tragic that Professor McGuckin feels that he has to leave the UK to go to a country which he says,

“offers a much better environment”—

“to cure and treat more people”

Amendment No. 2A simply seeks to insist on what Professor McGuckin calls,

“a much more reasoned balance”,

between the use of human embryos and the alternatives.

As the Bill is currently drafted, government Amendment No. 2 requires that a

“licence cannot authorise keeping or using a human admixed embryo in any circumstances in which regulations prohibit its keeping or use”.

At first glance this may seem eminently reasonable, but in reality, these words merely assert in a painful piece of tautology that it is not legal to allow something that is illegal. Surely, before authorising the creation and use of animal/human hybrid embryos, we should insist on more rigorous criteria and safeguards.

I therefore propose that this should be extended to cover, in the words in the Marshalled List,

“any circumstances where the purposes of the proposed research can be achieved by any method not entailing the use of human admixed embryos”.

Some may protest that the law already contains criteria that achieve this effect. However, if it does, I should be grateful if those who believe it would kindly cite the relevant clauses and demonstrate how they

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have been used in practice. By contrast, I remain unaware of anything in either the current Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act or this Bill that has parity with the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, in which the relevant imperative is in the legislation, explicitly requiring,

“that the purpose of the programme to be specified in the licence cannot be achieved satisfactorily by any other reasonably practicable method”.

That is a perfectly reasonable, logical thing to do. If it is right to do it in the case of animal experimentation, why is it not reasonable to ask for the same thing for human embryos?

What objective criteria are employed by the regulatory authority in determining whether the use of embryos is necessary and desirable for a particular purpose? As discussed during our earlier debates, it is especially noteworthy that the HFEA has ultimately never refused any licence application. It has therefore been argued that the HFEA may have found it very difficult to say no. Even as we have been debating the Bill over the past 12 months, there have been extraordinary breakthroughs that mercifully and happily will ensure that these dilemmas and decisions will no longer be necessary. I refer to the breakthroughs made by Jenny Thompson and Professor Shinya Yamanaka in Japan using IPS cells—induced pluripotent stem cells—and getting them to run backwards, using our skin rather than creating human embryos to manufacture embryonic stem cells, which is extraordinarily exciting science. It enables good science and good ethics to march hand in hand.

I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Winston, in his place. I was struck by a programme that he broadcast over the summer in which he demonstrated that a huge amount of hype has gone into the claims made about various forms of stem cell technology. We have to keep this in the kind of perspective that the noble Lord rightly described in that broadcast.

As the HEFA comes to consider licence applications, I hope that it will also keep these things in proper perspective and look at the alternatives. Regardless of my previously expressed repugnance at the manufacture of human embryos—my consistent position—there is nothing in this amendment that automatically prevents the creation of so-called human admixed embryos for research, as long as the purpose of the proposed research cannot be achieved by any method not entailing the use of human embryos. The amendment requires that embryos that combine human and animal material should be used only if there is no other means of achieving the same ends. I find it hard to see how anyone could reasonably object to this amendment if they truly believe that a particular project of research is necessary.

The licensing authority and scientists should be duty bound to explore the alternatives, not only due to the ethical concerns but also because of the finite resources. Interspecies cybrid embryos were argued for on the basis that we supposedly need an alternative to using excessive numbers of human eggs for cloning research. These are finite resources that often bring complications for women’s health, as we discussed at earlier stages of the Bill, through hyperovulation syndrome.

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My amendment also brings the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act into line with paragraph 8.3 of the International Society for Stem Cell Research guidelines for human embryonic stem cell research, which states:

“The project proposal should include a discussion of alternative methods, and provide a rationale for employing the requested human materials, the proposed methodology and for performing the experiments in a human rather than animal model system.”

That is all my amendment seeks to do. I hope the House will consider this amendment carefully and will pause to reflect on what message it wishes to send not only to the British public but to the wider world. Are we to be so ideologically wedded to experimentation with all manner of human interspecies embryos that we blind ourselves to the alternatives, especially when they seem to achieve the same purported ends far more efficiently?

I invite the House to vote in favour of a modest provision that prohibits nothing, but insists with the full force of law that a case must be made that no alternatives are available before permitting the creation and destruction of the human admixed embryos authorised by this Bill. I beg to move.

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, I remind my noble friend Lord Alton that issues relating to the use of cells derived from human embryos and the use of adult stem cells were fully and extensively debated in this House many weeks ago. In this group of amendments, we are dealing with human admixed embryos. When the Bill was debated in this House, we made it clear that the purpose behind the development of such admixed embryos was to be able to clone cells derived from the tissues of patients suffering from diseases such as diabetes, Parkinsonism, dementia and many other conditions in order to be able to study in a research method their nature and ways in which they might ultimately be treated or cured.

At that time, the purpose was to have admixed embryos in which the nucleus of a human cell derived from a patient with one of those diseases could be implanted in an animal ovum from which the nucleus had been removed. The only reason this was felt to be a crucial research tool in the study of disease processes was that it would be preferable to implant those cells—say, a skin cell from someone with one of those diseases—into a human ovum from which the nucleus had been removed, but there is, reasonably, a shortage of human eggs. However willing and public-spirited a woman may be, for her to donate eggs may require the insertion of a needle through the vagina in order to remove eggs from the ovary. That is not a trivial procedure. The Bill makes it absolutely clear that once a human admixed embryo is created, it could under no circumstances be implanted into a human being or animal. It can only be used to study the process of the disease from which the individual whose cell was originally taken was suffering.

At the time of our debate in your Lordships’ House, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, was concerned about the definition of human admixed embryos. I understand that he has subsequently had extensive discussions with the Academy of Medical Sciences and others involved in this area. This has led to this series of amendments from the Commons making

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that definition much clearer. Commons Amendment No. 3, which we have not yet come to, adds a category of human admixed embryos where the animal DNA is not predominant, thus returning, including and embracing within this clause the type of admixed embryo which has been legal for many years under the Animal Procedures Act, and enabling it to be used for research purposes.

I believe that the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is unnecessary. Why do I say that? Work involving admixed human embryos is extremely difficult and time-consuming. It occupies a great deal of effort on the part of the scientist. If alternatives to that type of research are available, I have no doubt that scientists will take them and use them wherever possible. This amendment is quite unnecessary. I congratulate the Government on the Commons amendments, which have been so carefully and expertly framed. They will improve the Bill and happen to meet most of the concerns, ambiguities and uncertainties which remained in the Bill when it left your Lordships’ House. For that reason, I cannot support the amendment.

Lord Winston: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for the customary moderation with which he moved his amendment, which is important in this debate. Sadly there has not always been moderation outside the House. Today we heard, unfortunately, of “Nazi experimentation”. It is good that we are not indulging in that kind of language, which very unwisely polarises this debate and does not usually lead to much light.

I would like to correct what is, I think, a misapprehension of the noble Lord, Lord Alton. I declare an interest as a member of the UK Stem Cell Foundation, which is the main funding body purely for research into stem cells in this country, and which works in a close relationship with the Medical Research Council. Therefore, it is the leading body funding medical research in this field. The noble Lord’s comments about the professor of regenerative medicine are surprising to me. He claims that, in this country, we are not doing anything other than prioritising embryonic stem cells. I have to tell the noble Lord that the UK Stem Cell Foundation has not so far funded a single grant towards embryonic stem cells, nor have we ever had a grant application from this particular professor. I do not think it is unreasonable for me to say that in this Chamber. It is difficult to assess his work, so I do not know why he is leaving this country, but it is certainly not because he has had a grant application turned down because of the prioritisation suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. It is important to put that on the record at the start.

The noble Lord kindly referred to my television programme on the hype surrounding embryonic stem cells, with the extraordinarily sad death of the child of 10 who was hawked around the world. I simplified the story; not only did that child go to Argentina and the Dominican Republic, but also to China and Siberia for treatment. Some people are unfortunately misguided enough to do that because of their desperation. That is another reason why we must be extremely moderate in presenting the work that we do.

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It is important, in that context, to make clear that I showed on that television programme that none of the adult stem cell treatments worked either. As far as I am aware, the only adult stem cell treatment that really works and has been shown to work is where we replace bone marrow cells, usually in children with leukaemia. It is a relatively uncommon disease. A few exceptional other diseases can be treated with bone marrow, but we must make it clear that adult stem cell treatments have been equally unsuccessful. The area is still under development. That is the crucial issue for the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Alton.

The problem is that we can never be certain in any kind of research. The beauty of the Large Hadron Collider is that we do not know whether we will find the Higgs particle, or what other particles we might discover; nor have we any serious idea of what future applications there might be for physics or engineering. To some extent, that is always true in biological experiments. We cannot say absolutely that embryonic stem cells will definitely provide cures for the range of diseases that the noble Lord has listed; it is simply not true. Nor could we say so for adult stem cells.

We must be quite cautious and make judgments about how this research is directed. Therefore, we accept that a regulatory authority has to make the best assessment of that research. We cannot absolutely say that it will definitely work but the current expert opinion, which may change, strongly suggests that it is the case.

Incidentally but remarkably, the professor of regenerative medicine to whom the noble Lord referred has not been working with adult stem cells. According to his publication record, which I checked only this week, virtually all of this work has been on foetal stem cells, mostly in umbilical cord blood. Again, that is a different area of science which is still extremely vague, and has largely been rather unsuccessful in helping treatment of patients so far. Equally, however, it holds hope, as we hope that it will do in the future.

Lord Patten: My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Winston. I am particularly interested by his suggestion that things are interesting in science and must therefore always be pursued, looking specifically at the CERN experiment. I wish it well; I hope that it is back on the road—or, rather, underground and rotating—during next year. However, whether it is successful or not, as far as I know it does not raise any great ethical issues. Physics has in the past raised ethical issues, such as nuclear and other related matters, but CERN does not. I do not doubt that, for many scientists, work on embryonic stem cells is extremely interesting, but it comes up quite hard against some difficult ethical questions. I know that the noble Lord recognises that, and I agree with him that we must be moderate in how we discuss these issues.

That is why I strongly support the noble Lord, Lord Alton, in his amendment for two reasons that I shall state briefly, as befits us at this stage of the consideration of the Bill. First, it is reasonable and proper to ask science to demonstrate that there are no alternatives before using admixed cells in this way. To the best of my knowledge, no one has been able to stand up and say that there are no alternatives. That phrase often

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fell from our lips in another place on economic matters, but I do believe that no alternatives have been demonstrated in this area.

The second reason is that I am told—perhaps the Minister, with his characteristic courtesy, will confirm this point or correct me—that there is nowhere in the world any existing cure, properly approved by the relevant regulatory authorities in that territory, which uses embryonic stem cells, whether admixed or not. There is nothing that is actually working so far.

Baroness Tonge: My Lords, I cannot possibly support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Alton. That is not because I do not respect the noble Lord—I always have done. He used the word “repugnance” about this sort of research, but he should remember that a lot of us feel repugnance—I certainly do—at not doing research that may help people with terrible chronic illnesses that they have no way of curing. It is repugnant to me that we are denying people the chance of a better life.

The noble Lord referred to the mass manufacture and use of human embryos. I do not really think such a sentence is terribly helpful. By no stretch of the imagination could this research be termed “mass manufacture”, and it is not helpful to the general public to use such words.

The noble Lord and I are founder members of the all-party group on cord blood. It is very clearly stated that we want to encourage the collection of cord blood but definitely not for exclusive research on stem cells from cord blood. We believe that all forms of research should be pursued. We cannot possibly know where research will go or whether it will be any good until we have pursued it. That is the major point—we must follow all lines in the interest of ultimately curing human diseases.

Lord Patel: My Lords, I was hoping that we would not have to rehearse all the lengthy discussions we had in Committee and on Report, but it looks as if we might have to. I support all that has been said by my noble friend Lord Walton of Detchant and others who have spoken, although, with all due respect, I do not agree with the amendment.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton, said several things about alternatives. Alternatives for what? Alternatives for research? Alternatives for therapy? In the United States, Professor Yamanaka and James Thomson have done research on induced pluripotent cells, taking an adult somatic cell nucleus and reprogramming it so that it behaves like an embryonic stem cell. The advances in matters of direct reprogramming of human somatic cells, without the use of oocytes or early embryos, is an exciting and welcome development. However, this work is at a very early preliminary stage. The current technology involves engineering the cells in a way that raises a number of safety issues that will need further refinement before these cells can be used in the clinic. It is only by studying the human embryonic stem cells and their behaviour that we know that the induced pluripotent cells behave in exactly the same way. Even Professor Yamanaka, who now does some of his work in California, is continuing to work in embryonic stem cells.

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The really important point of any application of these so-called induced pluripotent cells must depend on the understanding of basic human biology, and that demands comparative work with both embryonic stem cells and IPS cells. One can only conclude that we should work with IPS cells only if we are interested in direct application, but if that is pursued without an understanding of the basic biology, it is like, to use the analogy I gave last time, comparing gold with material that looks like gold, but we cannot be sure until we have understood that the properties are exactly the same. Yes, IPS cells may be the future but we cannot work with them until we better understand how human embryonic stem cells behave.

In the debate last time I said it is important at this stage to allow research to continue on all types of stem cells—adult, umbilical cord, cord blood, amniotic and embryonic stem cells, and admixed embryos. Why do we need research with admixed embryos? My noble friend Lord Winston and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, briefly mentioned the availability of human oocytes. Obtaining human oocytes is not without risk and they are also in short supply. To get good stem cell lines you need fresh oocytes, which makes it even more difficult. Just now we are trying to understand the path of physiology and the biology of embryonic stem cells derived from human tissues that carry the genes of a particular disease, so that we are better able to understand how that disease develops from an early stage, are able to modify that and to develop and test drugs in vitro, and so on. Without embryonic stem cells derived through admixed embryos, we will not be able to do this research. It is necessary for research purposes. There are no alternatives but to do research on all types of stem cells.

On therapy, my noble friend Lord Winston mentioned that we have tremendous therapy in bone marrow stem cells for treating leukaemia. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that there are other therapies using adult stem cells but they are few and far between. They are mostly autologous therapies—cells taken from one person used for the treatment of that person. Adult stem cells will never be the answer for mass treatment of people with degenerative diseases. Where are we with embryonic stem cells? In research terms we are at a very early stage. In understanding the biology through using embryonic stem cells, the pace has been accelerating quite a bit. We only managed to understand and do induced pluripotent cells because we understood how embryonic cells behave. If we had not, that work would never have come to fruition.

On treatment, there is no treatment today using embryonic stem cells but there are treatments using them at an early stage of trial on animals. There have been some early human trials and it is likely—I hope it will happen—that by the end of next year or early 2010 in the United Kingdom there will be first-phase trials using human embryonic stem cells for age-related macular regeneration. Some 3 million people in this country suffer from, and 30 per cent of people aged over 65 develop, some degree of age-related macular degeneration. I hope that research will come to fruition. None of the stem cell research is likely to have an overnight success. It may not ever happen but we will not know unless we study every type of stem cell.

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On funding, I declare an interest. I have declared several interests before, being not only a member of several professional organisations but also a chairman of the United Kingdom National Stem Cell Network. I am also a member of the Medical Research Council. In 2007, 424 grants were awarded—at a rough estimate some £56 billion, excluding charity funding. The majority of grant applications were from the MRC, the Wellcome Foundation and the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council. The MRC’s awards were 50:50 adult stem cell research to embryonic stem cell research. Some 90 per cent of the Wellcome grants were for adult stem cell research. The trend is towards adult stem cell research and towards more research on induced pluripotent stem cells. Grants are awarded to people who submit the best science; that is how it should be. They should not be awarded for poor science that is not judged good by peers. If there is any evidence that grants are awarded for poor embryological science, let us hear about it. In my view, it does not happen.

I hope that I have made the case for why it is necessary to carry out research on all types of stem cells, including admixed embryos. Without it, we will not progress.

Lord May of Oxford: My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the UK Stem Cell Foundation. Like the noble Lord, Lord Winston, I pay respect to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for his admirable restraint and honourable declaration of his own interests: abhorrence of stem cell research.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: Embryonic stem cells, my Lords.

Lord May of Oxford: I am sorry, my Lords—embryonic stem cell research. I agree with the noble Lord that, on occasion, the medical benefits and their immediacy are oversold in excesses of enthusiasm. That is nowhere plainer than in some excessively enthusiastic claims made for non-embryonic stem cell research, which, the noble Lord must agree in all fairness, he tends, understandably, to accept more uncritically than he does other things.

I will not go over the ground covered by the noble Lords, Lord Walton and Lord Winston, and the previous speaker, but I re-emphasise that we have legislation; we have a committee on human fertilisation and embryology; we have procedures that look very carefully at these matters; and we have research grants and a process for choosing the best that works well. Ultimately, to put it bluntly, the purpose of this amendment is to impede a certain class of research within that, and that is why I oppose it.

Lord Turnberg: My Lords, the case against the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has been well discussed. I want to focus on the implications of its wording. It concerns human admixed embryos alone. The purpose of admixed embryos has been driven largely by the difficulty of obtaining human eggs. The implication of the amendment is that there should be no other available method of achieving the

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same result. It seems possible that human eggs could be used for embryonic research of this type and that, since the use of admixed embryos is the result of our inability to get human eggs, this amendment would drive research towards using human eggs. I cannot think that that is what the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is trying to achieve, therefore this amendment should not be agreed to.

Lord Bates: My Lords, I humbly address the House as a new Member and a non-scientist. I suppose one might ask, then, what I have to add to this debate. It seems to me that, whereas science has a role in saying whether we can, Parliament has a role in determining whether we should. That seems a pretty simple role, and on that basis I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord Alton, in his amendment. Characteristically, he is asking the House and those in the parliamentary process to think again, to pause for thought. That is wise. As I have gone through this Bill, as well as the excellent briefing papers that are available in the Library, I have tried to absorb the material—but the complexity of the issues at stake is bewildering. For that reason, considering matters again more carefully is very important.

As well as giving due consideration, another protection in this process is the use of language. It is critical that we say what we mean. When we use terms that are euphemistic, such as “admixed embryos” when we are talking about human-animal mixes, clearly that can lead people to draw different conclusions to those they would come to if we were more explicit about what they meant.

Having made those two points, I support the noble Lord’s amendment.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, as one of many non-scientists who have taken part in the extensive debates on this issue, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Bates, that we do not need extra time to think again because we have not thought; I have to say that we spent a lot of time at a detailed Committee stage and on Report in this House discussing this very issue.

Like other noble Lords, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on the very temperate way in which he introduced his amendment on an issue on which he feels very strongly. It helps the quality of debate if he is able to move amendments as he has today. However, he has not answered the query that some of us addressed to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, who is unfortunately not here today, when she raised a very similar issue at an earlier stage.

I take it in the noble Lord’s amendment—and he will correct me if I have misunderstood it—that when he says,

“or in any circumstances where the purposes of the proposed research”,

by “purposes” he means outcomes. In that case, my question remains how you know until you have done it. You will know the outcomes of this procedure only when you can compare it with a result by some other means. Unless you follow all avenues, only then do you know which is the more fruitful; what you cannot do is a series of linear experiments, because at that point you cannot know what hurdle you seek to address.

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This amendment presents a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument. You already have to know the outcome you would have achieved without doing it so that you therefore know you can get to the same outcome by some other way that you can take. Forgive me, but that is no way in which to conduct research, and certainly not scientific research.

Lord Tombs: My Lords, I begin by reminding noble Lords that this amendment is about the use of human-animal embryos, and the proposal is that they should not be used if reasonable alternatives are available. The debate has rather turned into a conception of the amendment as an attack on all embryonic research, which plainly it is not. It does not seek to make the world rotate in the reverse direction.

The noble Lords, Lord Walton and Lord Patel, have both described the amendment as unnecessary—the noble Lord, Lord Patel, because scientists are so fixated on purity that they would not do anything other than what the amendment suggests. I have to say that that is not my experience. The noble Lord, Lord May, thinks that acceptance of the amendment would somehow inhibit research, which was a point not agreed on by his colleagues. I want to broaden the debate and talk about what the amendment seeks to do and what effects it might have.

We have been told—and, therefore, most journalists and members of the public believe—that most future cures lie with embryonic stem cell research, that there is a shortage of human eggs necessary for such research and that, therefore, we should use animal eggs to create admixed human embryos. There are still big doubts about whether these cells will yield any treatment at all and it is my contention, which I hope to demonstrate, that the proposals are unproven, unnecessary and unethical.

First, they are unproven. Embryonic stem cells are difficult to obtain, develop and maintain. They are unstable, and mutate in culture. The fact that they produce cancerous tumours when transplanted into animals has led to an understandable reticence in using them in any human therapeutic trials. It is clear that clone cells, used to address the problem of immune rejection, are not normal cells. That is why it took 277 attempts to produce Dolly the sheep and why no one has yet grown a human clone to a stage mature enough to harvest stem cells from it.

Secondly, embryonic stem cells obtained from animals are unnecessary. The ethical alternative of adult stem cells is already used to treat more than 70 diseases and, similarly, umbilical cord stem cells are being used in treatments and are easily and cheaply harvested. The website of the National Institutes of Health this month shows 2,170 clinical trials involving adult stem cells, 125 of which involved cord blood stem cells, but not one clinical trial in humans involving embryonic stem cells. That says volumes and it is not an exceptional month. Adult stem cells require limited, if any, manipulation and are readily available from a number of sources, comparatively at least. They are already providing cures in humans and there are no ethical concerns in their use, making them acceptable to virtually all patients and healthcare providers.

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A number of people have referred to the fact—and I return to it now—that the use of embryonic stem cells is believed to be unethical by large sections of the British community, including scientists, who regard human embryos as vulnerable human lives worthy of respect and protection. Many believe that the production of animal-human hybrids crosses a moral Rubicon and, of course, a species barrier, and that the “end” of providing treatments, if it were technically possible, does not justify the “means” of destroying human life even at its earliest stage.

The morning after the other place had voted to allow the creation of animal-human embryos, Mark Henderson, the science correspondent in the Times, who led a vigorous campaign for cloned animal-human embryos, struck a note of sober caution. He wrote that,

“admixed embryos ... are not going to lead to immediate medical breakthroughs ... any insight they might offer into diseases such as Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s are probably years away”.

“they could be used to investigate how diabetes and motor neurone disease progress and to develop and test new drugs”.

Those are valuable things. But if Mark Henderson, the enthusiast, is now so cautious, we may conclude that some of the claims made in this House and in another place have been somewhat overstated. In this connection, I go back to a debate held in this Chamber around 15 years ago, when the promises were extravagant and imminent.

Finally, in these uncertain economic times, but also in any good stewardship, we should be investing most heavily in those research avenues which are most likely to produce cures in the foreseeable future with fair certainty. It is not simply a matter of keeping all avenues open but of putting our money into research that is likely to yield results affecting people and not necessarily extending the boundaries of human knowledge as an end in itself. I strongly urge noble Lords to lend their support to Amendment No. 2A.

Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, we have spent a significant amount of time in this House debating the use of admixed embryos. The House has voted and has made its position clear, the issue has also been debated and voted on in the other place, and Members of that House agreed to the position in the Bill as it left this House. Therefore let us be clear that the current position in the Bill on this issue reflects the agreed position between the two Houses.

The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, seeks to restrict the use of human admixed embryos for purposes of research. The effect would be that embryonic stem cell research using human admixed embryos could be carried out only as a last resort. Before any research project involving the creation or use of human admixed embryos could be licensed by the HFEA, it would have to be satisfied that the use of human admixed embryos is necessary. This means that if there were any other way of carrying out the research without using a human admixed embryo, or human embryo, the project could not be licensed.

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The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, would ensure that a human admixed embryo was created or used if the research could not be achieved by any other means. At best, the amendment is unnecessary, because of provisions already in the Bill that ensure that research projects can be licensed only if the creation of the human admixed embryo is necessary. However, at worst, the amendment could force researchers down the route of using human embryos in preference to human admixed embryos. That would also mean that scarce human eggs would be used over animal eggs for some projects, and would be a significant obstacle to research.

A major issue in embryonic stem cell research is the shortage of human eggs to be used in the creation of embryos. Scientists and the Government have listened carefully to arguments from the scientific community about the need to create admixed embryos for research. As I said earlier, the matter has been closely scrutinised by parliamentary Select Committees, and voted on in the other place and in your Lordships’ House. An amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, concerning human admixed embryos was debated on the Floor of this House on Report and defeated by 268 votes to 96.

At present, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority must assess whether the use of embryos or human-admixed embryos is necessary to achieve the purposes of research projects. The research must also be necessary or desirable for one of the statutory processes set out in Schedule 2. Amendment No. 2A would mean not only that the use of human-admixed embryos for the purposes of the research should be necessary, but that the research was unable to be achieved by any other method. This would be contrary to the purpose of using human admixed embryos, which is as a means of researching serious diseases while overcoming the problem of the scarcity of human eggs.

The noble Lord, Lord Patten, asked whether we are aware of such research leading to a cure anywhere in the world. We are in early days. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, pointed out, if we do not do the research, we will not be able to find that out. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, eloquently referenced a number of promising early research results. The Government want to see research moving for all sources of stem cells. The country leads research in this field.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton, referred to a scientist who was leaving this country. For every scientist leaving, many have been attracted here to do research in this field, one of whom is Stephen Minger, who has come to the UK because of the legislative framework in place in the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton, asked whether the HFEA has ever refused a licence. It has never done so, because the HFEA executive works with the licence applicant to ensure that the application is satisfactory before it can reach the licensing committee. At the same time, the HFEA requires the applications to be peer-reviewed to ensure that they are necessary and desirable, and meet the criteria.

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We have debated this matter in both Houses. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment but I invite the House to resist it if he presses it.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Darzi of Denham, for the way in which he has responded to the debate. Indeed, I am grateful to everyone who has participated in it, especially to my noble friend Lord Tombs, who I am pleased to see back in his customary place. I am grateful also to the noble Lords, Lord Patten and Lord Bates, for their support for my amendment.

The House will be relieved to know that I will not detain noble Lords for long. I will briefly deal with some of the arguments raised. I have not, in this amendment, invited the House to return to the debate mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, which we had nearly a year ago. This amendment would not prohibit embryonic stem cell research. It would not prohibit the creation of animal-human hybrids. It invites the House to require the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority to seek from every licence applicant, and from the licensing authority, an undertaking that, before using admixed embryos, alternatives had been explored.

I come to the point properly raised in our previous debates by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. I agree that this is not about trying to predict outcomes, but about methodology. It is not unreasonable in these changed circumstances—and they have changed even as we have considered this Bill, because we now have induced pluripotent stem cells, which are embryonic in nature, created from our own skin and do not require the creation of human embryos—to say that this is a satisfactory alternative with which all of us can live. We should therefore require the authority simply to consider that question; not the creation and use, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said, of more eggs; not the creation of human embryos, as the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, said; but the use of adult stem cells, and, through them, the creation of induced pluripotent stem cells as a legitimate alternative to the manufacture of human embryos. I use “manufacture” not in a pejorative or rhetorical way, but I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, that 2 million human embryos have been destroyed or experimented on, either through IVF or experimentation—these figures were given earlier in the debate—since we authorised the creation of human embryos in 1990. If any Member of the House could say that this has led to cures, it might lend legitimacy to the argument. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Patten, and others have pointed out, it has not. It is not unreasonable, in 2008, to say that if this is still just about hope, it is not something on which we should place too much reliance.

I will be happy to give these papers that have been passed to me to the noble Lord, Lord Winston. I can give him a copy of a briefing produced by Professor David Prentice, in which he lists, as the noble Lord, Lord Tombs, has done, more than 70 different conditions that have been successfully treated using adult stem cells. It is true that some treatments have been by bone marrow, but there have been other examples, too. I chaired a briefing in the Moses Room of your Lordships’ House in which Professor Carlos Lima came from

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Portugal to talk about the use of olfactory cells in spinal cord treatments. A television programme, Miracle Cell, was produced using that material. These are some examples.

The noble Lord, Lord May, agreed with me—there is common ground here—that none of us should overhype the potential of these cells, whether they are from embryos or adult stem cells, because there are many people suffering from debilitating conditions for whom this must seem like a tantalising solution, when it is still probably a long way off. I will be happy to share that information.

The noble Lord, Lord Winston, and others made a point about the comparative amounts of money allocated by the Medical Research Council to these two areas of research. I have the figures here and am happy to share them. In 2005-06, £17.4 million was made available by the Medical Research Council, of which 43.6 per cent was spent on adult stem cells and 56.4 per cent—significantly more—on embryonic stem cells. I say to my noble friend Lord Patel that, instead of the trend being in that direction, the reverse is true. In 2006, the figure was 46 per cent spent on adult stem cells and 54 per cent on embryonic stem cells. There is every indication that the work that Professor Colin McGuckin has undertaken at Newcastle has, as he said, been discriminated against. I think that we should take that seriously, but those are not the arguments that your Lordships are being asked to vote on this evening.

“in any circumstances where the purposes of the proposed research can be achieved by any method not entailing the use of human admixed embryos”.

Therefore, it would be down to the person applying for the licence and for those sitting on the licensing authority to satisfy themselves of those facts before they proceeded to issue such a licence. I think that this is a moderate amendment and I hope that noble Lords will be prepared to support it. I wish to seek the opinion of the House.

On Question, Whether Amendment No. 2A, as an amendment to Commons Amendment No. 2, shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 39; Not-Contents, 202.

Ahmed, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Bates, L. [Teller]
Byford, B.
Cotter, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dundee, E.
Eames, L.
Elton, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glentoran, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Greaves, L.
Hylton, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Liverpool, E.
Lyell, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L. [Teller]
Masham of Ilton, B.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Patten, L.
Pendry, L.


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Powell of Bayswater, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Southwell and Nottingham, Bp.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Tombs, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.

Adams of Craigielea, B.
Addington, L.
Adonis, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashcroft, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L. [Teller]
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bew, L.
Bhatia, L.
Bilston, L.
Birt, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blood, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Boyd of Duncansby, L.
Bradley, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter of Barnes, L.
Chidgey, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Darzi of Denham, L.
Davidson of Glen Clova, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Drayson, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Elder, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Emerton, B.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Gale, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Grocott, L.
Hameed, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Joffe, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsmill, B.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Manningham-Buller, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mawson, L.
Maxton, L.
May of Oxford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Meacher, B.
Mitchell, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Murphy, B.
Myners, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.


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Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Patel, L.
Patel of Bradford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quin, B.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees of Ludlow, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Rogan, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sharman, L.
Sharples, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.

Soley, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tonge, B.
Trefgarne, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Tyler, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Hornsey, B.
Young of Norwood Green, L.